JURISPRUDENCEA Moral and Legal Abomination
The government has offered no substantive legal justification for the Trump administration’s policy of indefinitely separating children from their parents at the border.
On Thursday, Sen. Dianne Feinstein proposed a law that would bar the intentional separation of asylum-seeking parents from their children when they cross the border. “It’s hard to conceive of a policy more horrific than intentionally separating children from their parents as a form of punishment,” the California Democrat said in a statement publicizing the move.
Affidavits from a February lawsuit filed by the American Civil Liberties Union show precisely what Feinstein describes. The Congolese asylum-seeker at the center of the case, known as “Ms. L,” described having her 6-year-old daughter taken away by the U.S. government without explanation. “She was taken into another room and then I heard her screaming: Don’t take me away from my mommy!” the woman wrote. In court filings, the government questioned whether Ms. L was in fact her child’s mother. The woman had her child returned only after the suit was filed and the government was made to conduct a DNA test that proved her parentage.
“[T]hese terrible policies call into question whether we are in violation of our own laws and our obligations under international law,” Feinstein said in proposing a law to stop the practice of splitting up families at the border. Feinstein is right: There seems to be no coherent legal justification for separating children from their parents, some of whom—like Ms. L—presented themselves at a port of entry as asylum-seekers and have not been charged with any crimes.
The rationale top Trump administration officials have stated publicly—that such a practice will deter undocumented immigrants from seeking asylum at the border—appears to be so patently unconstitutional that the government’s own lawyers have renounced it in court. If the broad outlines here sound familiar, that’s because the legal fight over the policy is shaping up as a replay of the battle over President Donald Trump’s disastrous first travel ban, which was quickly struck down as a blatant violation of due process rights.
A federal judge in San Diego is set to rule any day on the question of whether the government is lawlessly abducting immigrant children at the border. The ACLU is seeking a classwide preliminary injunction to put a stop to the practice. Based on a close reading of legal filings in the case, the public statements of policymakers, and a transcript from a critical hearing last month, it’s difficult to fathom how the judiciary could possibly rule in favor of the government.
In court proceedings last month, Judge Dana Sabraw indicated that the case, Ms. L v. ICE—filed by the ACLU on behalf of Ms. L and other asylum-seeking parents who have had their children taken away—should hinge on the due process clause of the Fifth Amendment. Under a series of Supreme Court precedents, family integrity has long been considered a “fundamental” due process right. Among other rulings, the ACLU’s lawsuit cited the Supreme Court’s opinion in 2000’s Troxel v. Granville, which stated that there is “a fundamental liberty interest of natural parents in the care, custody, and management of their child.” This precedent mandates both that the government show a compelling government interest in separating a child and parent—preventing child abuse, for instance—and that it is using the least restrictive means to fulfill that interest.
In the ACLU’s case, the government has not shown a lawful basis for its policy of indefinitely separating immigrant children from their parents at the border. In fact, government lawyers have denied the existence of any such policy at all. In response to Sabraw’s question about whether the government “has a practice, or perhaps even a policy, of separation of families as a deterrence mechanism,” Justice Department attorney Sarah B. Fabian asserted, “There is not such a policy.”
This claim directly contradicts the administration’s publicly stated reasoning. When asked by CNN in March 2017 about the possibility of separating children from their parents at the border, then–Secretary of Homeland Security John Kelly said, “I am considering, in order to deter more movement along this terribly dangerous network, I am considering exactly that.”
Per the New York Times, that policy was put on hold at the time because it was deemed too controversial. But in the last several months, as Trump has reportedly put intense pressure on his Cabinet to reverse an uptick in border crossings by undocumented immigrants, such a policy appears to have been put into place. Last month, the Washington Post reported that a pilot version of a program of separating families had occurred “in the Border Patrol’s El Paso sector, which includes New Mexico, between July and November 2017, and [the administration] said the number of families attempting to cross illegally plunged by 64 percent.” And in a pair of speeches last month, Attorney General Jeff Sessions seemed to herald the launch of a formal policy, calling it a “zero-tolerance” immigration measure. “If you don’t want your child separated, then don’t bring them across the border illegally,” Sessions said. “It’s not our fault that somebody does that.” Kelly, now Trump’s chief of staff, stated again last month in an interview with NPR that the purpose of “family separation” is deterrence. “The name of the game to a large degree … a big name of the game is deterrence,” he said.
The current secretary of Homeland Security, Kirstjen Nielsen, did not provide a direct answer when asked by NPR if “family separation at the border … [was] meant to act as a deterrent,” explaining that it’s very common for adults to get separated from their children when they commit crimes. In testimony before Congress in April, Nielsen said, “When we separate, we separate because the law tells us to, and that is in the interest of the child.”
In April, the Post reported that portions of the separation policy had been memorialized in a memo—a document that described the maneuver’s deterrent effect:
In a memorandum that outlines the proposal and was obtained by The Washington Post, officials say that threatening adults with criminal charges and prison time would be the “most effective” way to reverse the steadily rising number of attempted crossings. Most parents now caught crossing the border illegally with their children are quickly released to await civil deportation hearings.
“Such a policy would mean separating parents and children, because the parents would be placed in criminal detention, where children cannot be held,” the Post noted.
In a statement provided to the Post, Homeland Security spokeswoman Katie Waldman said, “DHS does not have a policy of separating families at the border for deterrence purposes.” Waldman did justify the splitting of families, though, by claiming it was necessary to combat child smuggling as well as to “protect” children from their own “nefarious” border-crossing parents. “DHS does … have a legal obligation to protect the best interests of the child whether that be from human smugglings, drug traffickers, or nefarious actors who knowingly break our immigration laws and put minor children at risk,” she said.
While the government denies the existence of a concrete policy, the numbers tell a different story. “Customs and Border Protection informed me that 658 children were taken from 638 parents during a 14-day period in May,” Feinstein reported on Thursday. This is a huge uptick from the six-month period between October and April, when the New York Times reported that “more than 700 children”—roughly 120 per month, as compared to 658 in 14 days—were reportedly separated “from adults claiming to be their parents.”
Let’s imagine that, based on all this evidence, Judge Sabraw—who was appointed by George W. Bush—determines there is in fact a new government policy of separating children and parents at the border. The court would then need to examine the government’s stated rationale for enacting such a rule. For the policy to pass constitutional muster, the government needs some legal justification for the indefinite separation of parents from children, even when the parents and children are undocumented immigrants. The Supreme Court held in 2000’s Zadvydas v. Davis that due process rights apply to undocumented immigrants. This holding suggests the government may not separate asylum-seekers from their children indefinitely and without cause. During last month’s arguments, it sounded like the judge believed the policy justification stated by Kelly—deterrence of illegal immigration—was clearly unconstitutional. “A policy of deterring families from entering the United States by separating them … would [that not be] a clear substantive due process violation?” Judge Sabraw asked of Fabian, the government attorney.
“If it was done without any otherwise authority to cause the separation, I think, we might be closer to that problem,” she acknowledged, claiming the government does have such authority stemming from the Immigration and Nationality Act. When Sabraw responded that the government still hadn’t presented a substantive due process rationale, Fabian said the government has a right to separate parents who are jailed for violating the law from their children while those parents are behind bars. The ACLU, in this lawsuit, is not contesting that fact. What it is contesting is the government’s apparent policy of refusing to return children to parents once they’ve served their time—generally around a month for misdemeanor illegal entry—and of taking children from parents who present themselves at a U.S. port of entry seeking asylum and have not been charged with any crime.
When confronted about the legality of these practices, the government has merely asserted they are legal without providing a substantive justification. “They can’t come up with a justification because the truth is that the only justification that makes sense is their perceived view of the deterrence value,” Lee Gelernt, the ACLU attorney litigating the case, told me.
Having reviewed the transcript from the hearing, and having read the government’s legal filings, Gelernt appears to be correct. At May’s hearing, the judge repeatedly questioned Fabian about whether a substantive due process violation had occurred. Fabian asserted it had not. The judge then made clear that the government had to offer an actual argument. “Simply saying there is detention and … therefore the family integrity gives way doesn’t address specifically what’s happening in this case,” Sabraw said. “Doesn’t there have to be some determination in order to comply with Fifth Amendment rights before separately detaining family members?”
Fabian, at this point, simply stated: “We don’t agree that that has to be made.” She then said that when a minor and parent are separated, the Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act dictates that the minor be placed with another custodian. But she didn’t explain why the decision to indefinitely separate the minor from the parent would be made in the first place.
Later, the judge specifically addressed those situations in which a person has been convicted of an unlawful entry misdemeanor, had their child lawfully separated from them while they were incarcerated, and then been detained by immigration officials separately from their children while awaiting asylum. “Is there any process that [the Department of Health and Human Services] has or DHS has where after a person has served their time, efforts or a process exists to explore the lawful options of reuniting the parent with the child?” Sabraw asked. “There is not a process that would reunite them at that time because she is in ICE custody and remains unavailable,” Fabian responded. “Shouldn’t there be” some process for reuniting “after a person does their time?” the judge asked. Fabian then argued that it is in the best interests of children to remain separated from their detained parent because such a parent is “not going to be a suitable custodian.”
The notion that a child is better off without his parent not only flies in the face of logic, it also contradicts government policies that allow the detention of some undocumented asylum-seekers with their children. If such parents have historically been considered suitable custodians—and in some cases are still considered suitable custodians—how can other similarly situated parents not be considered suitable custodians?
The government ultimately leaned on the argument that DHS must make decisions in a hurry. “The goal is not to prolong that process but to get folks to the location where they can be housed long-term if that is what is going to happen,” Fabian argued. Again, this argument is illogical: It wouldn’t take any longer to decide to keep parents and children together than it would to decide to separate them. Sabraw also asked if DNA testing might help the government distinguish biological parents from child smugglers, as it had in the case of Ms. L. Fabian said she didn’t know if that was “a feasible option.”
The ACLU has asked the court to allow it to add more plaintiffs to Ms. L v. ICE, which was previously filed with two plaintiffs. One of the motions seeking class certification includes affidavits from several other immigrants who’ve had their children taken away at the border. Those affidavits offer more examples of what it looks like when kids as young as 18 months old are literally ripped away from their parents.
Testimony of Mr. U:
All I can remember is how much my son and I were both crying as they took him away. I do not recall anyone questioning whether I am really his biological father or whether I was a danger to him or abusive in any way. I even had my son’s birth certificate proving I am his father. … It has been six months since I last saw my son.
Testimony of Ms. G:
Shortly after arriving, I was told that I was going to be separated from my daughter. There were no doubts expressed that I was my daughter’s biological mother and I have a birth certificate to show our relationship. They did not say that I was a danger to my daughter or was abusive. … I know that [my children] are having a very hard time detained all by themselves without me. They are only six and four years old in a strange country and they need their parent. I hope I can be with my children very soon. I miss them and am scared for them.
Testimony of Ms. J. I. L.
That day, March 13, a woman came to pick up my kids. I was given only five minutes to say goodbye before J.S.P.L. and D.A.P.L. were torn from me. My babies started crying when they found out we were going to be separated. It breaks my heart to remember my youngest wail, “Why do I have to leave? Mami, I want to stay with you!” … In tears myself, I asked my boys to be brave, and I promised we would be together again soon. I begged the woman who took my children to keep them together so they could at least have each other. She promised she would, and she left with my boys. … I am particularly worried about my older son J.S.P.L. who was not doing well back in El Salvador after he saw MS gang members beat me and threaten me. He did not even want to leave my side to go to the restroom. … Both of my sons need their mother. I do not know if they are eating, sleeping, or even going to the restroom.
Testimony of Mirian:
The U.S. immigration officers then told me that they were taking my [18-month old] son from me. They said he would be going to one place and I would be going to another. I asked why the officers were separating my son from me. They did not provide any reason. … The immigration officers made me walk out with my son to a government vehicle and place my son in a car seat in the vehicle. My son was crying as I put him in the seat. I did not even have a chance to comfort my son, because the officers slammed the door shut as soon as he was in his seat. I was crying too. I cry even now when I think about that moment when the border officers took my son away.
Nielsen has said the government is acting as expeditiously as possible in such cases. “It’s not our intent to separate people one day longer than is necessary to prove that there is in fact a custodial relationship,” she told NPR last month. These affidavits call that claim into question.
Gelernt added that he has never seen anything this dramatic in his many years of working on immigration cases and doesn’t believe the public outrage has been nearly commensurate with the actions taking place.
“I just feel like the debate has become so abstract,” Gelernt told me. “If any policymaker could sit in that room for a day and watch these kids begging and screaming not to be taken away, I don’t know how they could continue this practice.” He says he fears the general population is already forgetting about the stakes of this case: “Roseanne will make another comment and the kids will be sitting there for another eight months, and no one will remember them.”
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PWS
06-04-18
I don’t like separating parents from their children either, but I don’t know of any other way for the gov’t to prosecute people for illegal entries. Can you suggest an alternative?
There are good reasons for stopping aliens from entering the US without an inspection, which I discuss in the second part of my new article, Undocumented immigrants shouldn’t replace legal ones.
http://thehill.com/opinion/immigration/390812-undocumented-immigrants-shouldnt-replace-legal-ones
Nolan Rappaport
We can deal with most illegal border crossers under the civil immigration laws. If they can’t show a “credible fear” or a “reasonable fear” under CAT (most individuals currently fleeing the Northern Triangle are able to demonstrate a credible fear or a reasonable fear under CAT) they can be summarily removed. If, as most from the Northern Triangle do, they pass the credible/fear/reasonable fear process they should be scheduled for hearings before Immigraton Judges. Informing folks that they should apply at the border and establishing fair treatment there probably would deter some illegal entries. But, the Administration has actually done the opposite — basically hassling folks who are trying to comply with the law by coming to the border.
Prosecutions of refugees (as opposed to smugglers or other real criminals) is basically a waste of time and money. According to studies,it has failed as a deterrent and will continue to do so. Even some of the Federal Judges stuck implementing the mindless prosecution policies recognize the futility, wastefulness, and basic immorality.
Refugee and other protection laws such as CAT are intended to protect individuals — not to discourage them from coming to seek protection. However, better overseas protection programs, precedents that facilitated grants of relief (and thereby discouraged DHS from improperly taking every case to full hearing,thereby overloading the system), work with the UNHCR and other “signatory countries” in the hemisphere to address the problems in the Northern Triangle, as well as some honest attention and resources to address what, if anything, can be done to stabilize the situation in the Northern Triangle would be very helpful. Acknowledgement of our role in creating these problems in the first place would be a good starting point. A wiser and more effective anti-gang strategy in the U.S. would also be essential to addressing the situation in the Northern Triangle.
My experience is that, contrary to some of the assumptions made by restrictionists, most folks would prefer living in the countries where they were born and grew up if it were possible to do that.
I think that migrants come here because 1) conditions in their home country give them no other viable choice (“forced migrants”); or 2) market forces in their home countries and in the US are driving them to come, or 3) a combination of 1) and 2).
Right now, our immigration policies don’t really recognize and reflect these realities of human migration. Unless and until they do, people will continue to come outside the legal system and we will continue to diminish ourselves as human beings and as a nation by our enforcement actions without having much impact on human migration.
PWS
06-06-18
Paul says, “Prosecutions of refugees (as opposed to smugglers or other real criminals) is basically a waste of time and money. According to studies, it has failed as a deterrent and will continue to do so. Even some of the Federal Judges stuck implementing the mindless prosecution policies recognize the futility, wastefulness, and basic immorality.”
The crime is entry without inspection, not smuggling or some other “real offense.” And as I have said earlier in this discussion, there are good reasons for making it a crime. Undocumented immigrants shouldn’t replace legal ones. By Nolan Rappaport
http://thehill.com/opinion/immigration/390812-undocumented-immigrants-shouldnt-replace-legal-ones
Is prosecuting entries without inspection effective? Probably not, but to my knowledge no other criminal law has stopped crime either. Murder is punished severely, but it still happens. Should we stop prosecuting murders?
Pauls says, “Refugee and other protection laws such as CAT are intended to protect individuals — not to discourage them from coming to seek protection. However, better overseas protection programs, precedents that facilitated grants of relief (and thereby discouraged DHS from improperly taking every case to full hearing,thereby overloading the system), work with the UNHCR and other “signatory countries” in the hemisphere to address the problems in the Northern Triangle, as well as some honest attention and resources to address what, if anything, can be done to stabilize the situation in the Northern Triangle would be very helpful. Acknowledgement of our role in creating these problems in the first place would be a good starting point. A wiser and more effective anti-gang strategy in the U.S. would also be essential to addressing the situation in the Northern Triangle.”
I agree that the solution is to let the UNHCR handle these cases at refugee camps.
Paul says, “My experience is that, contrary to some of the assumptions made by restrictionists, most folks would prefer living in the countries where they were born and grew up if it were possible to do that.”
Yes, if their countries were nice places to live, they probably wouldn’t come here seeking asylum. But are we going to solve that problem by inviting all of the people in the world who live in bad countries to come here?
Maybe we should apply that reasoning to other problems too. Homelessness in the DC area would be a good place to start. We can solve that problem by moving the homeless into the suburban houses of wealthy people who can afford to feed and clothe them and take care of their medical needs.
Nolan Rappaport
The aliens who present themselves at a Port of Entry are a different matter. They aren’t being charged with a crime. But I am not sure there is an alternative for them either. The problem in that situation seems to be that there are too many of them. Maybe the solution is to work out an arrangement with the Mexican government to do their credible fear determinations in Mexico to eliminate the need for detention.
Nolan Rappaport
If they appear at the port of entry they have an absolute right to present their asylum applications and have them fairly adjudicated under our law. The solution is to fairly adjudicate the applications, which also includes freedom from coercive detention, fair access to counsel, a chance to obtain evidence and prepare a case, and a hearing before an impartial decision maker (one who doesn’t work for Jeff Sessons).
If fair adjudications were undertaken, many, probably a majority would be granted some type of protection. Numbers simply are not a legal consideration here (and the numbers are minute in a relative sense). The folks are refugees. Most qualify for asylum, withholding, or CAT under fair applications of the law. We should screen and welcome the ones that qualify. Folks who don’t qualify should probably be returned in accordance with law. But, I would offer some type of temporary protection like TPS to those who face death or other dangers bu don’t meet the refugee definition.
If we want to stem the flow, we should also establish a robust overseas refugee program for the Northern Triangle. We should also work with the UNHCR and other stable countries in the Western Hemisphere (Mexico might or might not be one of those) to establish effective protection mechanisms that would “spread the impact.”
PWS
06-06-18
Paul says, “If they appear at the port of entry they have an absolute right to present their asylum applications and have them fairly adjudicated under our law.”
No, they just have a right to a credible fear determination, and that depends on the government’s ability to provide one. There is no legal impediment to taking their names and telling them to come back when their names appear on a list that is posted somewhere at the border. In fact, I think the government has been doing something along these lines.
Paul says, “The solution is to fairly adjudicate the applications, which also includes freedom from coercive detention, fair access to counsel, a chance to obtain evidence and prepare a case, and a hearing before an impartial decision maker (one who doesn’t work for Jeff Sessons).”
If you want to make a wish list instead of trying to find a feasible solution, don’t stop with those demands. Let’s give them free rooms at one of Trump’s hotels while they are waiting, with free drinks at his bars and free meals at his restaurants. Spa treatments to ease their stress would be nice too. I’m sure Trump has spas somewhere. Maybe even dinner at the White House.
Paul says, “Numbers simply are not a legal consideration.”
Maybe not, but they have to be considered. If you want an example of how numbers impact adjudications, consider the immigration court backlog crisis.
Paul says, “If we want to stem the flow, we should also establish a robust overseas refugee program for the Northern Triangle. We should also work with the UNHCR and other stable countries in the Western Hemisphere (Mexico might or might not be one of those) to establish effective protection mechanisms that would “spread the impact.”
I agree with this idea. In fact, I have suggested it before myself. Asylum should be eliminated to extraordinary circumstances instead of being an alternative to the refugee system.
Under INA s. 208, “Any alien who is physically present in the United States or who arrives in the United States (whether or not at a designated port of arrival and including an alien who is brought to the United States after having been interdicted in international or United States waters), irrespective of such alien’s status, may apply for asylum in accordance with this section or, where applicable, section 235(b).”
So, everyone is entitled to ask for asylum. Somehow, through an exercise of mental gymnastics the few Article IIIs who have considered the issue have managed to “harmonize” this rather clear and absolute requirement with the later-enacted credible fear process. I predict that before the end of the Trump Administration the Article IIIs and perhaps the Supremes are going to have to take a more intellectually honest approach and face up to the real conflicts in the statutory scheme.
But, as of now, everybody does at least have a right to ask for asylum and to have a fair credible fear determination, which the overwhelming number of “Caravaners” and other recent arrivals from the NT have been passing.
It appears to me that the Trump Administration is purposely slowing down the process at the ports of entry to discourage and harass applicants. For example, with many weeks notice, they obviously could have been ready to process the few hundred folks in the Caravan who eventually arrived at the border. Instead, they made a “show” out of making them wait — claiming a bogus lack of staffing. Indeed, there have been many credible reports that officers have improperly refused to give “arriving aliens” (other than the “Caravaners,” who apparently all eventually did get screened) access to the asylum process. I believe there is a pending law suit on this issue.
In any event, we do owe folks a fair chance to apply, even if it’s through the “credible fear” process, and a fair adjudication of their full applications for those who have demonstrated “credible fear.” It’s well within our power, without “breaking the bank” or invoking panic driven “emergency procedures” to provide that.
Indeed, an Administration truly interested in Due Process and fair implementation of the law could work with pro bono groups and with Immigraton Judges to secure access to competent legal counsel (which actually results in some folks giving up weak claims and agreeing to return) and to schedule Immigration Court cases in a manner that meets the legitimate needs of all parties to produce a fundamentally fair answer in a reasonable, predictable time period without undue damage to already pending cases.
Indeed, that process could actually become a “model” for improving Due Process and efficiency in the Immigration Courts.
But, that’s not where Sessions & Co. are going. They seem to be intent on causing the system to break down and then using that as a bogus reason for statutory changes (likely unconstitutional) that would eliminate Due Process and take away the limited rights that those applying for asylum now have.
Immigration can’t be solved with a one-sided “enforcement only” approach that fails to consider the particular needs of the various judiciaries involved , the individuals in the system, and those representing or trying to represent them.
PWS
06-06-18
Paul says, “Under INA s. 208, “Any alien who is physically present in the United States or who arrives in the United States (whether or not at a designated port of arrival and including an alien who is brought to the United States after having been interdicted in international or United States waters), irrespective of such alien’s status, may apply for asylum in accordance with this section or, where applicable, section 235(b).”
So, everyone is entitled to ask for asylum. Somehow, through an exercise of mental gymnastics the few Article IIIs who have considered the issue have managed to “harmonize” this rather clear and absolute requirement with the later-enacted credible fear process. I predict that before the end of the Trump Administration the Article IIIs and perhaps the Supremes are going to have to take a more intellectually honest approach and face up to the real conflicts in the statutory scheme.
But, as of now, everybody does at least have a right to ask for asylum and to have a fair credible fear determination, which the overwhelming number of “Caravaners” and other recent arrivals from the NT have been passing.”
That’s not responsive to my point that the right is limited by the ability of our government to process the claims.
Paul says, “It appears to me that the Trump Administration is purposely slowing down the process at the ports of entry to discourage and harass applicants. For example, with many weeks notice, they obviously could have been ready to process the few hundred folks in the Caravan who eventually arrived at the border. Instead, they made a “show” out of making them wait — claiming a bogus lack of staffing. Indeed, there have been many credible reports that officers have improperly refused to give “arriving aliens” (other than the “Caravaners,” who apparently all eventually did get screened) access to the asylum process. I believe there is a pending law suit on this issue.”
This reminds me of something I learned in law school when I to a course on environmental law. The courts didn’t always apply the law as written. Sometimes it just wasn’t possible for a company to comply without going out of business and letting go hundreds of employees.
The same sort of thing happened at the Occupational Safety and Health Review Commission when I worked there. Dock workers refused to wear hard hats when they unloaded ships, which they were required by law to do. Rather than shutting down the ports, the Commission let the violation slide. I don’t think you will find any area of law that doesn’t take reality into account.
Paul says, “In any event, we do owe folks a fair chance to apply, even if it’s through the “credible fear” process, and a fair adjudication of their full applications for those who have demonstrated “credible fear.” It’s well within our power, without “breaking the bank” or invoking panic driven “emergency procedures” to provide that.”
It isn’t about money, it’s about not having an acceptable place to detain them while they wait.
Paul says, “Indeed, an Administration truly interested in Due Process and fair implementation of the law could work with pro bono groups and with Immigraton Judges to secure access to competent legal counsel (which actually results in some folks giving up weak claims and agreeing to return) and to schedule Immigration Court cases in a manner that meets the legitimate needs of all parties to produce a fundamentally fair answer in a reasonable, predictable time period without undue damage to already pending cases..”
Didn’t the Supreme Court hold that due process for an undocumented alien at our border seeking admission is whatever Congress says it is?
Frankly, your persistent insistence on “due process rights” have convinced me that you can’t be satisfied. If enough people make such demands, we could see Congress changing the law to eliminate asylum applications and require CBP to send all aliens with persecution claims to the nearest refugee camp, even if it is thousands of miles away.
Paul says, “But, that’s not where Sessions & Co. are going. They seem to be intent on causing the system to break down and then using that as a bogus reason for statutory changes (likely unconstitutional) that would eliminate Due Process and take away the limited rights that those applying for asylum now have.”
They are applying the law as written.
Paul says, “Immigration can’t be solved with a one-sided “enforcement only” approach that fails to consider the particular needs of the various judiciaries involved , the individuals in the system, and those representing or trying to represent them.”
Trump isn’t doing that. Have you forgotten his offer to give lawful status to 1.8 million DACA eligible aliens? The republicans in congress, however, are sticking to enforcement only legislation. My guess is that they have given up on trying to satisfy Democratic demands. Why bother weakening their enforcement programs if their concessions aren’t going to get cooperation from the Dems anyway?
Nolan Rappaport
Nolan says: “It isn’t about money, it’s about not having an acceptable place to detain them while they wait.”
What a lame excuse for turning your back on people in need. Who says they need to be detained? As in the NYT article linked below says:
“….But in the alternative universe of the alt-right, that theory was taken as truth, not because the ranks of the alt-right have found logic in such stories but because those stories feed the larger narrative of a debauched world of liberalism that needs cleansing by fire. The lies are too valuable to the larger movement.
For Jews, this is personal. Had ordinary Germans and Poles and Ukrainians and Austrians and Frenchmen not played along, had they continued to shop in Jewish establishments and visit Jewish doctors, the Final Solution may, just may, not have been quite so final. To stand up to creeping totalitarianism, we needn’t throw ourselves under the tank treads. We just need to not play the game…..
In the early 1930s, as Hitler came to power, consolidated control and blamed the Communists for the Reichstag fire, the Brown Shirts of the Nazi movement clashed furiously with German Communists. The German people largely stayed silent, shunning both factions. That anarchic moment always comes to mind when I watch the black-clad, masked antifa protesters preparing for their showdowns with the khaki-wearing alt-right. Antifa cannot be allowed to represent the most vibrant form of resistance, not if the great mass of the American electorate is to join in.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/17/sunday-review/anti-semitism-american-jews.html
Nolan says: “Frankly, your persistent insistence on “due process rights” have convinced me that you can’t be satisfied. If enough people make such demands, we could see Congress changing the law to eliminate asylum applications and require CBP to send all aliens with persecution claims to the nearest refugee camp, even if it is thousands of miles away.”
As my pal Noam Chomsky says:
“In some countries, there is a real refugee crisis. In Lebanon, for example, where perhaps one-quarter of the population consists of refugees from Syria, over and above a flood of refugees from Palestine and Iraq. Other poor and strife-ridden countries of the region have also absorbed huge numbers of refugees, among them Jordan, and Syria before its descent to collective suicide. The countries that are enduring a refugee crisis had no responsibility for creating it. Generating refugees is largely a responsibility of the rich and powerful, who now groan under the burden of a trickle of miserable victims whom they can easily accommodate.
The US-UK invasion of Iraq alone displaced some 4 million people, of whom almost half fled to neighboring countries. And Iraqis continue to flee from a country that is one of the most miserable on earth after a decade of murderous sanctions followed by the sledgehammer blows of the rich and powerful that devastated the ruined country and also ignited a sectarian conflict that is now tearing the country and the region to shreds.
There is no need to review the European role in Africa, the source of more refugees, now passing through the funnel created by the French-British-US bombing of Libya, which virtually destroyed the country and left it in the hands of warring militias. Or to review the US record in Central America, leaving horror chambers from which people are fleeing in terror and misery, joined now by Mexican victims of the trade pact which, predictably, destroyed Mexican agriculture, unable to compete with highly subsidized US agribusiness conglomerates.
The reaction of the rich and powerful United States is to pressure Mexico to keep US victims far from its own borders, and to drive them back mercilessly if they manage to evade the controls. The reaction of the rich and powerful European Union is to bribe and pressure Turkey to keep pathetic survivors from its borders and to herd those who escape into brutal camps.
Among citizens, there are honorable exceptions. But the reaction of the states is a moral disgrace, even putting aside their considerable responsibility for the circumstances that have compelled people to flee for their lives.
The shame is not new. Let us keep just to the United States, the most privileged and powerful country in the world, with incomparable advantages. Throughout most of its history it welcomed European refugees, to settle the lands taken by violence from the assassinated nations that dwelt in them. That changed with the Immigration Act of 1924, aimed at excluding particularly Italians and Jews. There is no need to dwell on their fate. Even after the war, survivors still confined to concentration camps were barred entry. Today, Roma are being expelled from France to horrible conditions in Eastern Europe, descendants of Holocaust victims, if anyone cares.
The shame is deep and persistent. The time has surely come to put it to an end and to try to attain some decent level of civilization.”
https://diem25.org/noam-chomsky-for-the-refugee-crisis/
Signed,
Roxanne Fantl
Not just another “bleeding heart liberal” rather a human who still has a heart.
Thanks, Rox!
I find Nolan’s anti-Constitutional, anti-Due process views astounding, particularly for a smart guy who is a lawyer! Of course I, the other members of the New Due Process Army, and Americans with real values “won’t be satisfied” until we fulfill our promise of Due Process for everyone in the US! Complying with our legal obligations and international agreements is not such a tall order if you get away from Trump’s blatant racism and appeal to White Nationalism.
Threats to “eliminate asylum” are offensive. So, we’re going to ignore all of our international obligations, our legal system, and our Constitution and join the “League of Human Rights Violators” who don’t adhere to the UN Convention. Sure, that’s the Trump/Sessions/Goodlatte/Cotton/Miller/Perdue/Nielsen program. Pretty revolting, particularly for those of us who have spent a lifetime working to get the U.S. to adhere to the international standards we claim (perhaps disingenuously, if Nolan is right) to represent. Good luck with that!
Indeed, the Trump/Sessions/Miller White Nationalist program was the one that was most resoundingly rejected by a strong bipartisan majority in the Senate. But, the fact that Nolan and the GOP are even throwing things like that on the table shows just how far we have diminished our own humanity and our national values. I have no doubt that we can further diminish ourselves as a nation, as Nolan suggests. We started down that road by electing Trump. But, that won’t stop human migration.
And, indeed, why wouldn’t the “nearest refugee camp” be right here in the US? We’ve largely avoided the issue of being a “country of first asylum” and the issues that involves. Our modest inconvenience of being a receiving countries for a relatively small refugee flow we helped to create pales in the face of the responsibilities undertaken by true countries of “first asylum.”
I agree totally with Rox that it smacks of Hitlerism. Asylees and refugees are a “drop in the bucket.” Not a threat to the US by any stretch of the imagination. It we can’t live up to our Constitutional and legal requirements to treat folks fairly, then our whole Constitutional system is a fraud.
And, although Nolan won’t admit it, his rights are at stake here too. If we treat the most vulnerable among us the way Nolan seems to suggest that we can, then who will stand up for Nolan and others like him when the White Nationalists go to eliminate and abuse their rights (as they almost certainly will at some point). My view of Due Process is simply the decency, respect, and fundamental fairness that all of us expect and take for granted in dealing with our Government. That’s why we have a Bill of Rights — to protect us and everybody else in America from the lawless excesses of Trump/Sessions/Miller & Co.
Turning our back on other human beings and their lives just de-humanizes us, in the long run. I say “No thanks!”
PWS
06-06-18
Paul says, “I find Nolan’s anti-Constitutional, anti-Due process views astounding, particularly for a smart guy who is a lawyer!”
What views are those? We were talking about aliens caught making an entry without inspection and then the discussion expanded to include aliens seeking asylum at a port of entry. I said I thought the Supreme Court has held that due process for aliens seeking admission is whatever congress says it is, which would just be expedited removal proceedings.
How does that make me astoundingly anti-Constitutional and anti-Due process? Frankly, I think you are starting to use the same kind of ad hominem arguments on me that you have been using on Trump and other politicians.
Paul says, “Of course I, the other members of the New Due Process Army, and Americans with real values “won’t be satisfied” until we fulfill our promise of Due Process for everyone in the US! Complying with our legal obligations and international agreements is not such a tall order if you get away from Trump’s blatant racism and appeal to White Nationalism.”
We weren’t talking about aliens who are in the United States. That’s a very different topic.
Paul says, “Threats to “eliminate asylum” are offensive.”
Who threatened to eliminate asylum? I just said the extreme due process demands you and your due process army are making could make the republicans/Trump give up and send asylum applicants to a refugee camp instead of processing their applications. Again, remember we are talking about aliens in expedited removal proceedings, not aliens who are in the country.
Paul says, “So, we’re going to ignore all of our international obligations, our legal system, and our Constitution and join the “League of Human Rights Violators” who don’t adhere to the UN Convention. Sure, that’s the Trump/Sessions/Goodlatte/Cotton/Miller/Perdue/Nielsen program. Pretty revolting, particularly for those of us who have spent a lifetime working to get the U.S. to adhere to the international standards we claim (perhaps disingenuously, if Nolan is right) to represent. Good luck with that!”
I am not familiar with our international obligations, but I assume that the Supreme Court was when they made the holding I have mentioned several times now.
Paul says, “Indeed, the Trump/Sessions/Miller White Nationalist program was the one that was most resoundingly rejected by a strong bipartisan majority in the Senate. But, the fact that Nolan and the GOP are even throwing things like that on the table shows just how far we have diminished our own humanity and our national values. I have no doubt that we can further diminish ourselves as a nation, as Nolan suggests. We started down that road by electing Trump. But, that won’t stop human migration.”
Really, you get all of that out of my reference to a Supreme Court decision?
Paul says, “And, indeed, why wouldn’t the “nearest refugee camp” be right here in the US? We’ve largely avoided the issue of being a “country of first asylum” and the issues that involves. Our modest inconvenience of being a receiving countries for a relatively small refugee flow we helped to create pales in the face of the responsibilities undertaken by true countries of “first asylum.”
As I have said several times now, I like the idea of using the UNHCR to handle these claims. And I like the idea of putting a refugee camp here….unless the Dems are going to use it to further their views. Demanding legal counsel, hearings, free room and Board at a Trump hotel, and so on.
Paul says, “I agree totally with Rox that it smacks of Hitlerism. Asylees and refugees are a “drop in the bucket.” Not a threat to the US by any stretch of the imagination. It we can’t live up to our Constitutional and legal requirements to treat folks fairly, then our whole Constitutional system is a fraud.”
How can you make such an absurd claim? Do you really think denying due process to asylum seeking aliens at our border is similar to Hitler torturing and murdering 8 million Jews?
Paul says, “Turning our back on other human beings and their lives just de-humanizes us, in the long run. I say “No thanks!””
Tell congress and the Supreme Court. They decide what rights aliens seeking asylum at our border have, not you or your due process army.
My wife’s parents were in concentration camps. Still had their tattoos when they died of old age. I find it very offensive to compare detaining asylum applicants until they establish a credible fear to the way the Jews were treated in Nazi Germany
Nolan Rappaport
Nolan quotes:
“Paul says, “I agree totally with Rox that it smacks of Hitlerism. Asylees and refugees are a “drop in the bucket.” Not a threat to the US by any stretch of the imagination. It we can’t live up to our Constitutional and legal requirements to treat folks fairly, then our whole Constitutional system is a fraud.”
Nolan replies: “How can you make such an absurd claim? Do you really think denying due process to asylum seeking aliens at our border is similar to Hitler torturing and murdering 8 million Jews?”
…”My wife’s parents were in concentration camps. Still had their tattoos when they died of old age. I find it very offensive to compare detaining asylum applicants until they establish a credible fear to the way the Jews were treated in Nazi Germany.”
Roxanne responds:
Nolan: You seem to always be offended or insulted when someone has a viewpoint/comment when you can’t defend your own opinion. You are aware enough to understand that your opinion is based mostly on “faith in your position” but don’t muster the courage to expound on how your opinion is valid. You just resort to talking about politics, instead of ideas. In fact, your response is alarmingly similar to that of the Trump/Sessions/Miller and Co.
I absolutely think that denying due process to refugees and asylum seekers is akin to the Nazis murdering and torturing millions of people. Criminally charging an asylum seeker as they try to make a claim at a POE, wow, that is a new low for the USA. And I know I am not alone in my view of this.
Seriously, how is locking up children in cages that look like dog kennels and then denying them due process to seek asylum and sending them back to incredibly dangerous circumstances not unlike the Nazis murdering millions of people? Hmmm….no different, same intent, without the messiness of looking at and disposing of dead bodies.
If your in-laws were in fact in concentration camps, and had their “*Alien Numbers*” tattooed on their arms (these days the USA just uses “virtual tattoos” i.e. your Alien Number signals you are an OUTSIDER), then you probably could have a little more compassion to other populations who find themselves equally at risk as the Jews were during the Nazi Germany period.
Your suggestion that the liberals can’t compromise on immigration is what is insulting. Speak for yourself and your team – it’s a WALL or NOTHING. And even with your beloved Wall, it’s still NOTHING.
For those unfamiliar with the topic, here is concise discussion of the USA prior to Nazi Germany taking over, which reveals how the USA responded to the pre-refugee crisis of the Jews trying to escape Germany before the Nazis fired up their ovens:
…”On those attempting to escape Germany on MS St. Louis:
“These were German Jews of means, primarily, who, after Kristallnacht, after the night of the broken glass in Germany, saw the writing on the wall and tried to get out before there was a systematic policy to murder millions of Jews. And they applied for visas to the United States, they applied for documents to enter Cuba, and they boarded the ship to basically get out and to save their lives and the lives of their families. And along the way, unbeknownst to them, the Cuban government pulled their paperwork and these folks by and large were stranded. And they went from, first from Cuba, from the port of Havana, and they sailed toward Miami, at which point they were interdicted by a Coast Guard cutter. And despite attempts from both passengers on the ship, from representatives in America to try to help them gain with telegrams to both FDR and telegrams to the state department, these folks were forced back to Europe and approximately half of the Jewish refugees on the ship who were shipped back to Europe eventually ended up perishing during the Holocaust.”
You can read more at the following link or a multitude of other in-depth discussions about the USA’s role in ignoring the Jewish refugees during Nazi Germany’s rising and the American culpability in sending many people back to the place that they tried to flee from.
Why aren’t more people aren’t talking about these parallels, I do not know.
http://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2017/01/30/1939-refugees-st-louis-manifest
Roxanne says, “I absolutely think that denying due process to refugees and asylum seekers is akin to the Nazis murdering and torturing millions of people.”
That is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. I am not going to waste any more of my time responding to Roxanne’s comments.
Nolan Rappaport